Loved it! The more I let it sink in and process everything that happened the more I love it.
I think those that absolutely hated it have been watching the series for the wrong reasons.
I think that if you watch Seasons 1, 4, and 6 with a few episodes from Seasons 2, 3, and 5 you can see that this ending fits pretty well with the show.
I like Jimmy Kimmels theory that the show was about Jack and the island was his test. And that in order for him to move on he must pass this test. Which sort of touches on religious beliefs. Jack had to overcome evil, both metaphorically and literally by defeating the smoke monster. Jack passed that test. Jack needed to see the survivors off of the island. I have read that the last 15 minutes of the finale were written from the very beginning of the show. I truly believe that. However, I think as the show progressed and the writers added new plotlines the ending should have been altered a bit. I love that Jack dies and sees the Ajira plane leaving which was jacks ultimate goal from the beginning and having his eye close was a nice touch. But, I can't seem to fit into the grand scheme of things Kate, Sawyer, Miles, Richard, and Lapidus leaving the island. Perhaps I am missing somehthing. But if we look at it from a standpoint of the show being 'Jack's test' then the plane leaving with the remaining survivors was necessary and that would conclude Jack's test.
I believe the Church was Jack's funeral per say and like Christian said, all these people are there because they were the most important to Jack. That is very important to note. This was for Jack. This was the 'limbo' that Jack created for himself. It all makes sense from Jacks eyes. Jack has a son because he needed to resolve his father issues and what better way than to create himself a son and be the father he didn't have. He created Kate as the fugitive but with a good heart this time, and quite possibly innocent. He created Sawyer as the troubled kid that chose to be a cop instead of the man he was searching for. He gave Sawyer the proper ending of finding Juliette. He found his sister Claire and was able to have a relationship with her. Rose didn't lose Bernard and in this limbo Bernard makes it back to his seat. Hurley isnt plagued by the curse but instead has good luck. Ben is good and is forming a relationship with Danielle and Alex. I think these are all things that Jack wanted.
i think i made my point:-) btw, i am not calling it a flash sideways anymore but instead calling it 'Limbo'. I believe the limbo plays out much better when you think of it this way and the entire series as a whole. jack needed all of his castaways in order to help him reach his goal, pass the test, and move on (wherever that may be).
As for the mysteries, I don't think we were ever going to get definitive answers as to what the island was, why women can't get pregnant(I have more on this one), why walt was special, etc. At first I was starting to get disappointed by the episode 'What they died for" and was frustrated that we weren't ever going to get some answers. But after watching the finale and letting it soak in I am 100% okay with this. I think Mother said it best, every answer will lead to another question. i think the writers were as definitive as the story would allow them to be.
As for why women can't give birth on the island, I believe they answered that. We have seen that women have given birth before 'The Incident' (Ethan, Jacob, MIB, and maybe countless others), and we saw that after the incident this was not possible for women who conceived on the island. Claire didnt conceive on-island so she was able to give birth. Sun did conceive on-island so it is damn good she got off the island to give birth otherwise I believe she would have died after the second trimester. I believe this was hinted at when Jack is talking to Sun on the beach(when she lost her english) and Jack shows her the tomato and says, 'I guess someone forgot to tell it it was supposed to die'. I believe the losties were never supposed to leave the island and that Sun was supposed to die in her second trimester. I take this as a reference to that. Perhaps now that the plug was pulled and put back in place, women will be able to once again go full term on the island. Perhaps it was a complete reset.
As for Walt, I don't know why I am seeing all these people online complaining about not getting an answer for Walt. The writers told us in Season 5 through John Locke that he had already been through enough. They were done with Walt. Yes it would be nice to know what they had planned for him and hopefully the extra 2hr DVD that comes with the boxset will be Darlton discussing the show and what they had planned, what was scrapped, etc. I think that would be awesome. But I am not upset over this Walt business. Waaaaalllltttt!!!
Now one answer we didn't get that is bugging me is, who the hell did Juliette shoot on the outriggers in season 5?? I felt we kept getting teased during season 6 with this and never got the answer. Although, I have heard there is going to be and extended cut of the finale on the DVD. It is just heresay, but it would be nice to get a sort of LOTR extended cut that helps tie up the loose ends. Perhaps the outrigger scene hit the cutting room floor.
I was watching Attack of the Show and they had a critic on who hated the finale and said that the writers took a hard left turn with Season 6. I believe the writers took a hard left with the Dharma Iniative. I don't believe that was supposed to be part of the narrative, or a big part of the narrative anyways. Certain fans became obsessed with this and I don't think the writers intended for that. I think season 5 was awesome and was given to us to explain all the Dharma mysteries but the LOST saga could have been told without Season 5 and I think this upsets a huge amount of fans. perhaps I am wrong. But i recall that during the Season 1 and 2 hiatus, the writers didn't know what was going to be originally in the hatch.
I think after the initial shock of everything, the haters will realize the beauty of the finale and how it was really a fitting ending to the show.
I think ultimately, Season 6 and the reveals felt rushed. For me I believe Darlton wrote themselves into a corner by giving an end date. They kept exploring these characters and introduced these large story arcs but left themselves no time to resolve them. A great example is Ilana. The actress has confirmed that she was supposed to be Jacobs daughter but the writers could not fit that in with the time they had so instead they gave her the Arzt treatment. That was disappointing for me as well as the ending for Charles Widmore. I would have prefered that Darlton and ABC came to some sort of agreement where there is no end date set but that they would write the story they wanted to tell and when they approched the end they would reveal it was 'The End'. This way things wouldn't be rushed and character arcs would be resolved. I mean, networks can pull the plug on show at any minute why not let LOST pull the plug on ABC at any minute?
All in all, well done Damon and Carlton!
Cheeks, great job with the blog, I am going to miss these discussions! It was a great journey, if not the greatest journey in all of television.
Had to break it up into three comments cause of the character limit. Now I see why you have 20 posts from Cerpts each week. He runs out of space. It all makes sense now. The saga of LOST and the mysteries of the blog have come full circle.
For a series this important to me and with such high quality, I went into watching the finale prepared to be letdown. After building it up in your mind, how can it possibly live up to your expectations? I'm here to tell you that it exceeded them. I totally didn't expect this was where they were going with the finale and I can only say that I was pleasantly surprised, deeply moved and very much impressed. Frankly, as some emailer wrote to ABC, for the people who didn't understand what happened, they only have to listen to Christian -- he lays it all out completely and without any subterfuge. The problem is, I think, that the last 15 minutes of the finale was SO packed with emotion that the simple explanations that Christian was giving simply didn't register at first. I have already watched the episode twice (it was On Demand by 4 am that same night) and I'll tell you I loved the ending even more the second time when I could truly focus on Christian's words.
No, Jack wasn't dead the whole time. God, do LOST fans STILL think this even after Cuselof denied it years ago. As Christian tells Jack: everything really happened to him and all those people in the church are real. Jack died on the island exactly as we saw him (and yes, Vincent ate his body about 3 hours later). Then all the LOSTies "made for themselves" the so-called sideways (told you so #1 about it not being an alternate timeline) in order to bring themselves together so they could eventually move on. Now, Fink's term "limbo" is quite near the mark but has a little too much Christian allegory clinging to it -- and TPTB on LOST made DAMN sure to point out there was no particular religion involved here (by the prominently displayed stained glass window in the church featuring many denominations). They WERE in California, after all, and the church was clearly a non-denominational one. And as Kate told Jack, the only reason they were there was because that's where Jack was going to have his father's funeral. So atheists relax, the ending was actually just as valid for non-believers as believers. There is absolutely nothing that says that a "survival of the personality after death" has to involve a deity. The light that streamed in the doors as Christian opened them also has no necessarily religious connotations -- it's energy after all -- unless you choose to embue it with some. But I digress. The sideways Fink calls limbo I kinda equated with the Elysian Fields in Greek mythology -- google it! -- where these illustrious and sometimes heroic personages (our LOSTies) get to hang out after death in a non-reality outside time before they all get together, remember and move on.
Yes Fink, at last you realize about the character count on this comment page. Welcome to my world!
As Christian also explains quite plainly: all the people waiting for Jack in the church are dead, yes. Some died before Jack and some died long after Jack. He says this. He also says there is no "now" there. The church (which is only in the form of a church because that's what Jack's perspective made it) doesn't exist in time. That is why people who died long after Jack can be there first waiting for him. It's being seen from his perspective. I believe each of the other characters (Kate, Sawyer, Locke) would have their very own version of the same thing where Jack is there waiting and THEY are the last to arrive. As Christian says, there is no "now" and each person upon their death is not constrained but such ridiculous concepts as "place" and "time".
In the season premiere when we see Oceanic 815 encounter turbulence (where the original plane broke apart) but nothing happens, Jack is seen gripping the seat arms and Rose looks over and tells him "You can let go now". She is 100% not talking about him holding onto the seat but is the first in the "sideways" to be letting Jack (and us) know that he (and all of them) need to let go of this non-reality so they can truly move on into death. All our LOSTies in the "sideways" are sort of sleepwalking in a reality they think is real but isn't; it's only a holding place for them until they "remember" -- until they "wake up and see the light" as to their true natures -- or in the Buddhist terminology become "enlightened". All of this, of course, takes place in the space between an instant because it (the sideways limbo) doesn't exist in time -- so they could stay there as long as it takes for ALL of them to remember and then to move on together. This is an incredibly comforting thought and really really REALLY struck home with me. It's sort of a riff on the idea that some near-death experiencers describe i.e. that someone they loved was there to usher them across. In this case, everyone that you loved and meant the most to you all gather together and "move on" together. While I don't necessarily believe that's what will happen when I die, I wish like hell that it would! As I said before this final season started, I'll be watching this last season of LOST for my late friend Peg who didn't live to see it. So that is why this particular ending hit home with me so much and I think makes the entire series of LOST even better for it. Those people who didn't like the finale #1) need to watch the last 15 minutes again and listen to what the hell Christian is saying and #2) for complaining about an ending which didn't talk down to the audience but respected their intelligence, should go watch the new TWILIGHT movie because that's obviously where they belong. A prime-time series with this profound and moving an ending is #1) totally unprecedented, #2) much deeper and richer than anyone (including myself) would've ever expected and #3) is simply one of the most beautiful experiences television has ever provided. For the so-called LOST fans who are hung up about the minor little piddly questions which frankly don't matter that much, either their brains or their hearts are dead. Or both.
And once again Fink, you GO! girlfriend. Kick ass and take names! (But make sure the names all have numbers).
And Cheeks, once again all my appreciation for doing this blog every week, for gathering together all the disparate theories in one place and for working so hard to get it done!
When I said that the "flash sideways" was not an "alternate timeline" and that whatever happened in it didn't really matter because, by the end of the series, it was going to be established that none of the sideways events ever happened in reality . . .
. . .um, yeah I was right.
When I said that Jack was NOT going to be the island's protector and that they were setting it up so Hurley would be the one. . .
. . .um yeah right again.
When I said that Jack would take over for Jacob briefly -- he was not the island's "Mr. Right" but only "Mr. Right Now" and that Jack would die and Hurley would have to take over at a moment's notice. . .
. . .um yeah I'm wonderful!
When I said in the comment section months ago that Damian's (Jack's "Son") mother was going to be Juliet. . .
. . .yeah that was an EEEEEEasy one!
When I said that I expected Jack to die before the end of the series . . .
. . .he died 2 seconds before the end so THERE I WAS RIGHT!!!!
When I said that Harold Perrineau as Michael would appear in the finale wearing drag from ROMEO + JULIET . . .
This is my first reply as I have only been enjoying your posts for the last two years. My brother, Fink, turned me on to this. I have had a very empty feeling since the finale not because it was not perfect but sadly it is over like losing a friend. There are things that still baffle me some as think they are supposed to do so. I am left owondering how or why Desmond says to Jack before entering the cave that this does not matter and that he was next to Jack on the plane? Also, Aaron being in the church at the end with Claire confuses me some. I am unsure what to sermise of this. Anyway thanks to you, Cerpts and of course Fink:) for your thought pervoking insight to this fantastic ride for all this time. It has been said many times before it isn't about the beginning or end but the journey and so true this is.
11 comments:
Loved it! The more I let it sink in and process everything that happened the more I love it.
I think those that absolutely hated it have been watching the series for the wrong reasons.
I think that if you watch Seasons 1, 4, and 6 with a few episodes from Seasons 2, 3, and 5 you can see that this ending fits pretty well with the show.
I like Jimmy Kimmels theory that the show was about Jack and the island was his test. And that in order for him to move on he must pass this test. Which sort of touches on religious beliefs. Jack had to overcome evil, both metaphorically and literally by defeating the smoke monster. Jack
passed that test. Jack needed to see the survivors off of the island. I have read that the last 15 minutes of the finale were written from the very beginning of the show. I truly believe that. However, I think as the show progressed and the writers added new plotlines the ending should have been altered a bit. I love that Jack dies and sees the Ajira plane leaving which was jacks ultimate goal from the beginning and having his eye close was a nice touch. But, I can't seem to fit into the grand scheme of things Kate, Sawyer, Miles, Richard, and Lapidus leaving the island. Perhaps I am missing somehthing. But if we look at it from a standpoint of the show being 'Jack's test' then the plane
leaving with the remaining survivors was necessary and that would conclude Jack's test.
I believe the Church was Jack's funeral per say and like Christian said, all these people are there because they were the most important to Jack. That is very important to note. This was for Jack. This was the 'limbo' that Jack created for himself. It all makes sense from Jacks eyes. Jack has a son because he needed to resolve his father issues and what better way than to create himself a son and be the father he didn't have. He created Kate as the fugitive but with a good heart this time, and quite possibly innocent. He created Sawyer as the troubled kid that chose to be a cop instead of the man he was searching for. He gave Sawyer the proper ending of finding Juliette. He found his sister Claire and was able to have a relationship with her. Rose didn't lose Bernard and in this limbo Bernard makes it back to his seat. Hurley isnt plagued by the curse but instead has good luck. Ben is good and is forming a relationship with Danielle and Alex. I think these are all
things that Jack wanted.
i think i made my point:-) btw, i am not calling it a flash sideways anymore but instead calling it 'Limbo'. I believe the limbo plays out much better when you think of it this way and the entire series as a whole. jack needed all of his castaways in order to help him reach his goal, pass the test, and move on (wherever that may be).
As for the mysteries, I don't think we were ever going to get definitive answers as to what the island was, why women can't get pregnant(I have more on this one), why walt was special, etc. At first I was starting to get disappointed by the episode 'What they died for" and was frustrated
that we weren't ever going to get some answers. But after watching the finale and letting it soak in I am 100% okay with this. I think Mother said it best, every answer will lead to another question. i think the writers were as definitive as the story would allow them to be.
As for why women can't give birth on the island, I believe they answered that. We have seen that women have given birth before 'The Incident' (Ethan, Jacob, MIB, and maybe countless others), and we saw that after the incident this was not possible for women who conceived on the island. Claire didnt conceive on-island so she was able to give birth. Sun did conceive on-island so it is damn good she got off the island to give birth otherwise I believe she would have died after the second trimester. I believe this was hinted at when Jack is talking to Sun on the beach(when she lost her english) and Jack shows her the tomato and says, 'I guess someone forgot to tell it it was supposed to die'. I believe the losties were never supposed to leave the island and that Sun was supposed to die in her second trimester. I take this as a reference to that. Perhaps now that the plug was pulled and put back in place, women will be able to once again go full term on the island. Perhaps it was a complete reset.
As for Walt, I don't know why I am seeing all these people online complaining about not getting an answer for Walt. The writers told us in Season 5 through John Locke that he had already been through enough. They were done with Walt. Yes it would be nice to know what they had planned for him and hopefully the extra 2hr DVD that comes with the boxset will be Darlton discussing the show and what they had planned, what was scrapped, etc. I think that would be awesome. But I am not upset over this Walt business. Waaaaalllltttt!!!
Now one answer we didn't get that is bugging me is, who the hell did Juliette shoot on the outriggers in season 5?? I felt we kept getting teased during season 6 with this and never got the answer. Although, I have heard there is going to be and extended cut of the finale on the DVD. It is just heresay, but it would be nice to get a sort of LOTR extended cut that helps tie up the loose ends. Perhaps the outrigger
scene hit the cutting room floor.
I was watching Attack of the Show and they had a critic on who hated the finale and said that the writers took a hard left turn with Season 6. I believe the writers took a hard left with the Dharma Iniative. I don't believe that was supposed to be part of the narrative, or a big part of the narrative anyways. Certain fans became obsessed with this and I don't think the writers intended for that. I think season 5 was
awesome and was given to us to explain all the Dharma mysteries but the LOST saga could have been told without Season 5 and I think this upsets a huge amount of fans. perhaps I am wrong. But i recall that during the Season 1 and 2 hiatus, the writers didn't know what was going to be originally in the hatch.
I think after the initial shock of everything, the haters will realize the beauty of the finale and how it was really a fitting ending to the show.
I think ultimately, Season 6 and the reveals felt rushed. For me I believe Darlton wrote themselves into a corner by giving an end date. They kept exploring these characters and introduced these large story arcs but left themselves no time to resolve them. A great example is Ilana.
The actress has confirmed that she was supposed to be Jacobs daughter but the writers could not fit that in with the time they had so instead they gave her the Arzt treatment. That was disappointing for me as well as the ending for Charles Widmore. I would have prefered that Darlton and ABC came to some sort of agreement where there is no end date set but that they would write the story they wanted to tell and when they approched the end they would reveal it was 'The End'. This way things wouldn't be rushed and character arcs would be resolved. I mean, networks can pull the plug on show at any minute why not let LOST pull the plug on ABC at any minute?
All in all, well done Damon and Carlton!
Cheeks, great job with the blog, I am going to miss these discussions! It was a great journey, if not the greatest journey in all of television.
Had to break it up into three comments cause of the character limit. Now I see why you have 20 posts from Cerpts each week. He runs out of space. It all makes sense now. The saga of LOST and the mysteries of the blog have come full circle.
Fink,
Um, don't hold back.
Cheekies,
For a series this important to me and with such high quality, I went into watching the finale prepared to be letdown. After building it up in your mind, how can it possibly live up to your expectations? I'm here to tell you that it exceeded them. I totally didn't expect this was where they were going with the finale and I can only say that I was pleasantly surprised, deeply moved and very much impressed. Frankly, as some emailer wrote to ABC, for the people who didn't understand what happened, they only have to listen to Christian -- he lays it all out completely and without any subterfuge. The problem is, I think, that the last 15 minutes of the finale was SO packed with emotion that the simple explanations that Christian was giving simply didn't register at first. I have already watched the episode twice (it was On Demand by 4 am that same night) and I'll tell you I loved the ending even more the second time when I could truly focus on Christian's words.
No, Jack wasn't dead the whole time. God, do LOST fans STILL think this even after Cuselof denied it years ago. As Christian tells Jack: everything really happened to him and all those people in the church are real. Jack died on the island exactly as we saw him (and yes, Vincent ate his body about 3 hours later). Then all the LOSTies "made for themselves" the so-called sideways (told you so #1 about it not being an alternate timeline) in order to bring themselves together so they could eventually move on. Now, Fink's term "limbo" is quite near the mark but has a little too much Christian allegory clinging to it -- and TPTB on LOST made DAMN sure to point out there was no particular religion involved here (by the prominently displayed stained glass window in the church featuring many denominations). They WERE in California, after all, and the church was clearly a non-denominational one. And as Kate told Jack, the only reason they were there was because that's where Jack was going to have his father's funeral. So atheists relax, the ending was actually just as valid for non-believers as believers. There is absolutely nothing that says that a "survival of the personality after death" has to involve a deity. The light that streamed in the doors as Christian opened them also has no necessarily religious connotations -- it's energy after all -- unless you choose to embue it with some. But I digress. The sideways Fink calls limbo I kinda equated with the Elysian Fields in Greek mythology -- google it! -- where these illustrious and sometimes heroic personages (our LOSTies) get to hang out after death in a non-reality outside time before they all get together, remember and move on.
Yes Fink, at last you realize about the character count on this comment page. Welcome to my world!
As Christian also explains quite plainly: all the people waiting for Jack in the church are dead, yes. Some died before Jack and some died long after Jack. He says this. He also says there is no "now" there. The church (which is only in the form of a church because that's what Jack's perspective made it) doesn't exist in time. That is why people who died long after Jack can be there first waiting for him. It's being seen from his perspective. I believe each of the other characters (Kate, Sawyer, Locke) would have their very own version of the same thing where Jack is there waiting and THEY are the last to arrive. As Christian says, there is no "now" and each person upon their death is not constrained but such ridiculous concepts as "place" and "time".
In the season premiere when we see Oceanic 815 encounter turbulence (where the original plane broke apart) but nothing happens, Jack is seen gripping the seat arms and Rose looks over and tells him "You can let go now". She is 100% not talking about him holding onto the seat but is the first in the "sideways" to be letting Jack (and us) know that he (and all of them) need to let go of this non-reality so they can truly move on into death. All our LOSTies in the "sideways" are sort of sleepwalking in a reality they think is real but isn't; it's only a holding place for them until they "remember" -- until they "wake up and see the light" as to their true natures -- or in the Buddhist terminology become "enlightened". All of this, of course, takes place in the space between an instant because it (the sideways limbo) doesn't exist in time -- so they could stay there as long as it takes for ALL of them to remember and then to move on together. This is an incredibly comforting thought and really really REALLY struck home with me. It's sort of a riff on the idea that some near-death experiencers describe i.e. that someone they loved was there to usher them across. In this case, everyone that you loved and meant the most to you all gather together and "move on" together. While I don't necessarily believe that's what will happen when I die, I wish like hell that it would! As I said before this final season started, I'll be watching this last season of LOST for my late friend Peg who didn't live to see it. So that is why this particular ending hit home with me so much and I think makes the entire series of LOST even better for it. Those people who didn't like the finale #1) need to watch the last 15 minutes again and listen to what the hell Christian is saying and #2) for complaining about an ending which didn't talk down to the audience but respected their intelligence, should go watch the new TWILIGHT movie because that's obviously where they belong. A prime-time series with this profound and moving an ending is #1) totally unprecedented, #2) much deeper and richer than anyone (including myself) would've ever expected and #3) is simply one of the most beautiful experiences television has ever provided. For the so-called LOST fans who are hung up about the minor little piddly questions which frankly don't matter that much, either their brains or their hearts are dead. Or both.
And once again Fink, you GO! girlfriend. Kick ass and take names! (But make sure the names all have numbers).
And Cheeks, once again all my appreciation for doing this blog every week, for gathering together all the disparate theories in one place and for working so hard to get it done!
And now for the "I told you so's":
When I said that the "flash sideways" was not an "alternate timeline" and that whatever happened in it didn't really matter because, by the end of the series, it was going to be established that none of the sideways events ever happened in reality . . .
. . .um, yeah I was right.
When I said that Jack was NOT going to be the island's protector and that they were setting it up so Hurley would be the one. . .
. . .um yeah right again.
When I said that Jack would take over for Jacob briefly -- he was not the island's "Mr. Right" but only "Mr. Right Now" and that Jack would die and Hurley would have to take over at a moment's notice. . .
. . .um yeah I'm wonderful!
When I said in the comment section months ago that Damian's (Jack's "Son") mother was going to be Juliet. . .
. . .yeah that was an EEEEEEasy one!
When I said that I expected Jack to die before the end of the series . . .
. . .he died 2 seconds before the end so THERE I WAS RIGHT!!!!
When I said that Harold Perrineau as Michael would appear in the finale wearing drag from ROMEO + JULIET . . .
. . .yeah I never said that. But if only. . .
Mr. Cheeks,
This is my first reply as I have only been enjoying your posts for the last two years. My brother, Fink, turned me on to this. I have had a very empty feeling since the finale not because it was not perfect but sadly it is over like losing a friend. There are things that still baffle me some as think they are supposed to do so. I am left owondering how or why Desmond says to Jack before entering the cave that this does not matter and that he was next to Jack on the plane? Also, Aaron being in the church at the end with Claire confuses me some. I am unsure what to sermise of this. Anyway thanks to you, Cerpts and of course Fink:) for your thought pervoking insight to this fantastic ride for all this time. It has been said many times before it isn't about the beginning or end but the journey and so true this is.
Cheeks, what did you think?
I know you take a while with Finale recaps but are you planning on writing one for this finale?
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